New episode with Noam Brown. We talk about multi-agent, Navier-Stokes, and what the current explosion of maths progress tells us about what happens once you automate AI research.
And we also discuss how we will know if the models are actually aligned before we kick off RSI.
Watch on YouTube; listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Sponsors #
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Timestamps #
(00:00:00) – Multi-agent and Navier-Stokes
(00:15:28) – How will AI firms work?
(00:22:02) – What maths progress tells us about recursive self improvement
(00:40:22) – Hugging Face and alignment
(01:01:18) – The internal/external model gap
(01:08:34) – Chain of thought is degrading
(01:14:12) – How will we know when alignment is solved?
Transcript #
00:00:00 – Multi-agent and Navier-Stokes
Dwarkesh Patel
Today, I’m chatting with Noam Brown, who is a researcher at OpenAI. He was one of the foundational contributors to what became o1 and the reasoning models. Now he’s working on multi-agent systems. Speaking of which, you guys announced last week that you solved one of the Millennium Prize Problems with a system of 10,000 different AI agents that spent 130 billion tokens over 88 hours.
One of the reasons I’m interested in talking to you is that you were among the first people, maybe two or three years ago, who were thinking about how the reasoning models would allow us to see into the future. Because if you scale up inference compute, you can see what the base capabilities of the models will be a few years in the future.
I feel like you’re in a similar position now to help us understand what future capabilities will look like, given the enormous scaling of agent sizes that we can do right now.
Noam Brown
The way I think about it, when you plot the performance of these reasoning models with test-time compute on the x-axis and performance on basically any reasoning benchmark on the y-axis, you see a very clear pattern where the longer these models take to think about their answer, the better they do. This is a very natural thing. It’s the same thing with people. If you’re taking the SATs and you have five minutes to go through the entire exam, you’re not going to do very well. If you have five hours, you’re probably going to do a lot better.
The AI models are pretty similar. They’ll spend that time doing this monologue to themselves, figuring things out, going through different cases, ruling out different possibilities, building on some of their previous discoveries.
The problem is that as you push that further and further, you hit a latency bottleneck. You don’t want to sit around for three years waiting for a response. So what you can do is what a lot of people do. They parallelize. They just get a team of people. If you’re going to found a company, you want to get a group of people together so you can go faster. It’s the same thing with these AI models. It helps to just have multiple agents working on something because they can go faster.
So multi-agent is a way of scaling test-time compute in parallel instead of purely serially. It is less efficient, because it’s not like a single agent has all the context to itself. But it is a very effective way of scaling test-time compute if it’s done well.
Dwarkesh Patel
I’m going to ask a bunch of naive questions. This is an unreleased model, so we haven’t publicly seen how these systems work. I just have a bunch of ways in which I’m confused about what the qualitative properties of such systems are.
I am shocked by the scale of cognitive effort that you can concentrate in such a short period of time. Think about what 130 billion tokens are. If it were a single human thinking as a full-time job, stretched back to back, 130 billion tokens would be a human thinking for 4,000 years. Eight hours a day, working a normal work week. Starting from ancient Sumeria up till today, a single sequential human thinking that long, concentrated in 88 hours.
I feel like qualitatively, that is a super important consideration. I’m surprised that there isn’t a bigger parallelization penalty. You can just have 10,000 agents collaborate. Maybe because the agents are better at collaborating than humans might be, they’re going much faster. They can actually productively collaborate at such a big scale. Or maybe there is a big parallelization penalty.
Noam Brown
Let’s talk about the parallelization penalty, and then we can talk about the qualitative stuff. The truth is that we don’t have very good science on multi-agent scaling up to this kind of scale. When we released 5.6, I think that was the first time that we had a proper multi-agent system in our models. We actually did show some plots in the blog post of the scaling performance of multi-agent systems, because we have it as an option. It’s Ultra Mode. The default is four agents, but you can set that higher.
In the plot, we show what the performance looks like on some benchmarks for one agent, for four agents working together, for 16 agents working together. It depends on the benchmark, but for some of the benchmarks, what you see is that if you have four agents working on the problem, it is done twice as fast. Because there are four agents working for half as long, you’re paying 2x more to get an answer twice as quickly. If you go to 16 agents, you see a similar pattern. It’s a little less efficient, but you continue to see that performance.
Dwarkesh Patel
Is it a linear serial time speedup or a sublinear speedup as you increase the number of parallel agents?
Noam Brown
It’s slightly sublinear, though it does depend a lot on the problem. Math, for example, is quite parallelizable. It’s not the most parallelizable thing, but it is very parallelizable. Web search, things like doing a Deep Research report where you have to look through a bunch of sources, is extremely parallelizable. I suspect that something like writing a novel would be very unparallelizable. You would probably not see a big benefit from having 10,000 agents working on a novel together, in the same way that you’d probably not get a big benefit from having 10,000 people work on a novel together.
So the performance does depend on the domain. We do measure it up to 16 or so agents in our published blog posts. The problem is that it’s very hard to push that science to 10,000 agents because it’s just so expensive.
Dwarkesh Patel
You guys just did it over a weekend.
Noam Brown
But that’s one data point. We don’t know how long it would take a single agent to solve Navier-Stokes, because we haven’t done that experiment yet. Maybe we will, but that’s also only one data point.
If we want to do a thorough ablation, the experiments are just too expensive at that scale. So we have to do some kind of methodical science about what happens when you go to 64, 128, 256 or something and get a sense of the behavior. But it’s going to be very hard to push that all the way to 10,000 and know for sure what the benefit was that we actually got from using 10,000 agents versus 1,000. There’s one thing I want to make clear. The effort to solve a Millennium Prize Problem, this was not due to multi-agent. I wouldn’t even attribute 10% of the credit to multi-agent. The reality is that OpenAI has trained a very powerful model. We can get that model to operate over very long horizons. We can get it to think in parallel.
But at its core, the reason why we’re able to do this is because we just have a general-purpose, very strong model. Things like multi-agent are flashy and new, and that probably gets disproportionate credit for that reason. But the core reason is this is just a very powerful model.
Dwarkesh Patel
The generalization is quite shocking to me. I don’t know how these systems were trained, but presumably they were trained how RL training happens. You have a bunch of checkable synthetic problems and you do a bunch of RL against them. Nowhere in the training process, I’m guessing, was the model solving anything as ambitious as a Millennium Prize Problem. But the generalization was strong enough that you could have these much easier verifiable problems generalize to this much parallel effort on such a hard problem.
Noam Brown
I think that is true. First of all, we do train the model on very hard problems. There is definitely a gap. We see that if we train on some kinds of tasks, it’s able to do tasks that are more ambitious than that.
There is an interesting challenge that as the models become smarter and smarter, a lot of the kinds of questions we can ask them are just too easy. It’s hard to challenge the model. I do think that’s going to be interesting. If I had to make an argument for why you might not see AIs like LLMs go the same path as AlphaGo and AlphaZero and all these kinds of game-playing AIs, it might be this kind of problem.
In things like AlphaZero, where you have self-play, you have an infinite curriculum. You’re always playing against an AI that’s equally strong. Whereas for things like training an LLM with reinforcement learning, at least the ways that are out there right now, you give the model a problem and you ask it to solve it. If the problem is so easy that it can just solve it in a second, it’s not really learning anything.
If we run out of problems to challenge it, then that is a plausible scenario where it becomes much harder to make progress. Now, I do think there are ways around that. We haven’t really hit that as a wall yet. I think that if it ever became a serious problem, there would be ways around it. But it is a plausible scenario. Dwarkesh Patel
Just for the audience, when you’re referring to AlphaGo or AlphaZero, you’re talking about getting superhuman relatively fast after achieving human-level performance.
Noam Brown
If you look at the trajectory of game-playing AIs, like Go, within a span of a year they went from beating a European champion — something like number 50 in the world — to beating the world champion, to being unimaginably, orders of magnitude stronger than any human alive. It’s possible that in domains like math we see a similar trajectory, but I think there is a very plausible scenario where that doesn’t happen. Dwarkesh Patel
I want to understand, if in six months people will have access to multi-agent systems, how should one model what it is like to collaborate with or hire a multi-agent system?
Noam Brown
I should start by talking about how these multi-agent systems actually work, which I think is a very different way than a lot of multi-agent systems in other AIs. A lot of people that have approached multi-agents for things like LLMs tend to take this very scaffolded approach. For example, there might be a coordinator agent that delegates work to a bunch of children and gives them a task. The children work on it and then return their answer.
This seems like a very sensible setup, a very sensible scaffold. It definitely helps, but there are a bunch of limitations with these kinds of setups. For example, if in this setup you have a coordinator that’s sending tasks to children, and the children work on it and then return their answers, what happens if two children are given similar tasks? Can they talk to each other? Usually the answer is no. That’s very inefficient.
If you’re given a task and it’s actually really helpful to talk to somebody that might know an answer to a question that you’re working on — or part of something that you’re working on — it’d be really helpful for you to just be able to ping them and say, “Hey, can you help me out with this thing?” But a lot of systems don’t have that setup. Adding it significantly increases the complexity of the scaffold that you have. Another thing is, what if the child doesn’t really understand or has a clarification question? Then it has to choose between, “Okay, do I just return and ask the question instead of solving the problem?” or “Do I solve the problem, make an assumption about what the parent wanted me to do, and just solve it that way?” In any scaffold that people come up with, there are always limitations involved. The approach that we wanted to take was to just go toward the extreme end of baking in as little structure as we could and give the agents very primitive tools to use, and they figure out for themselves how to use them effectively. So we give the agents the ability to message another agent, and when it messages another agent, it is inserted into the context. It can do a few other similar things, but that’s basically the core of it. It can just send a message whenever it wants — just a tool call — and it can send that to other agents.
They figure out for themselves the best way to coordinate around that. It turns out that if this is done well, you get very sophisticated behavior. To me, it looks a lot like how human collaborators work over something like Slack, for example.
When we were working on this project, it was really exciting when we finally got it working to see these agents working on problems together. I remember one example. We give the agents a problem, and then one agent says, “I think I’ve got the answer.” Then another agent says, “Actually, I got a different answer.” Then they have this whole discussion about, “Well, how did you arrive at that answer? Can you explain it to me?” Going back and forth and trying to clarify what could’ve been wrong in each other’s reasoning.
Then they finally converge on, “Oh, yeah. Okay, that seems right.” Then it just broadcasts to the other agents, “Actually, I’ve changed my answer. I think he’s right.” It just felt like a very natural conversation.
It felt like when you see chain of thought for the first time that’s trained through reinforcement learning, and you’re like, “Oh, this is just kind of like what a person would think if they were writing down their thoughts as they’re thinking them.” It felt like that. It is really cool to see this kind of behavior. Collaborating with these things, honestly, feels a lot like collaborating with a person. It’s just a very natural flow.
Dwarkesh Patel
Except one qualitative difference that might become salient in the future is that these systems will be thinking maybe more than 10x as fast, if you just look at how many tokens per second they output versus how fast a human talks. They’re working all the time. They’re not sleeping. They’re collaborating with each other at a much more intense pace than humans have the capacity to collaborate with other humans.
I’m trying to think of what to qualitatively expect in a year. Is it like a shadow organization that is moving 100x faster in my company than the human level is? What would take a human organization a year to do is happening within a week within this shadow organization?
Noam Brown
Will it feel foreign? I don’t know. I’ve actually found that it’s surprisingly natural to work with these things right now. I think that could change. For example, we have these ultra-fast modes that enable sampling to be 10-15x faster or whatever. Then it’s going to be pretty hard to keep up with these things. The idea is that these agents, when they’re communicating with each other, can go super fast. But they also understand when they’re talking to an agent versus when they’re talking to a person, and their behavior will be different in those situations.
Dwarkesh Patel
The main example that we have publicly of sophisticated multi-agent systems is unfortunately the Hugging Face one. A lot of things I found concerning there, obviously. But the thing I found interesting there is the spontaneous emergence of hierarchy, of middle management. It sounds like you’re saying this level of organization emerges spontaneously from training?
Noam Brown
The details are spontaneous. But while we’re giving a lot of flexibility to the agents to decide how to communicate with each other in the optimal way, we are still giving them a starting point. We’re giving them a prior about what reasonable communication might look like. They’re also trained on a lot of human text. They have an understanding of how humans organize and coordinate, so that’s all baked in.
I think it is surprising the way they’re able to polish this. If you look at what it starts out at, it’s not very sophisticated behavior. In fact, it’s actually very difficult to get these agents to coordinate in a productive way, because it’s very tempting for them to just collapse to, “Oh, we’re all just going to solve the problem independently.” That is a local minimum that you can get stuck in. But if it’s done well, they can end up coordinating very effectively in these kinds of very structured ways.
00:15:28 – How will AI firms work?
Dwarkesh Patel
I wrote this essay a couple of years ago about what automated firms will look like. I was thinking about, if you had fully automated firms of, let’s say, human-level intelligences, what is different about the nature of AI minds that would make the organizations AIs form different? There are a couple of very important differences. For example, AIs can share context much more seamlessly than humans can. They can merge their knowledge much more seamlessly. Also, you can spin up or spin down an arbitrary number of instances which have the right knowledge.
So if you want to hire more people, it’s not all the schlep of finding the right talent or whatever. Your best talent, you can just make infinite copies of them. Or if you don’t need them for the task anymore, you can spin them down. You can replicate the most effective parts of your organization, or replicate whole organizations together which are effective. Where do you see these multi-agent systems going a year from now or two years from now?
Noam Brown
It’s a great question: how do these things actually differ from working with a human coworker? You highlighted some. One really interesting thing is that if you have a person and you want two copies of them, you can’t just clone the person. But with AIs, it’s actually really easy to just say, “Okay, just fork yourself,” and then have both copies work on this thing and then merge back together. We already have this, I think, in multi-agent for Astra and 5.6 Sol, where when they spin up sub-agents, the context is just forked. So it has all the context that’s relevant.
There are other interesting ways where the agents will differ from people. Like, what are some reasons why startups disrupt incumbents? There are a few factors. One is that they’re willing to take more risks. But another major factor is, as organizations grow in size, you see increasing misalignment between the individuals in the organization.
If you have a startup with five people and each person has a 20% share in the company, they’re all highly aligned to the company succeeding. If you have a massive company with 10,000 people, you see a lot more instances where people are territorial, or just care about getting a lot of headcount for their project or their team, building their fiefdoms, getting a lot of resources so that they can publish cool work or whatever and get promoted. This is actually a real detriment. I think this explains a lot of why startups are able to disrupt incumbents. It’s true that AI does help startups in a way. It’s much easier than ever before for one person to step in and be like, “I’m going to make a multimillion-dollar company.” The AIs amplify an individual so much. But there’s also an argument that they could benefit incumbents. If the alignment problem is solved, then you don’t have the issue of misalignment between individuals in the company. At least that’s mitigated. The AIs, if they’re aligned well, can just be aligned to the interest of the company. You can have 10,000 of them, and they’re all going to be working as hard as if they were a 20%-share co-founder.
Dwarkesh Patel
It’s not only that, but it’s also that they are much better able to manage shared memory and context than different humans can. If tomorrow you hire 10,000 mathematicians and you’re like, “Solve Navier-Stokes,” they’re not going to be able to cooperate effectively, at least not off the bat. But apparently you can have 10,000 AIs do that.
Noam Brown
Again, I want to be conservative here, because we haven’t measured how effective the 10,000 agents are at coordinating. We think it helped. We don’t actually have good measurements saying, “This 10,000 agents led to a 2x speedup over 2,000 agents,” or something like that. I don’t know about likely, but I think it is very possible that 10,000 humans are better at coordinating than 10,000 agents right now. I think it is entirely possible.
Also, one trend we’ve been seeing is… Look, we’ve been working on multi-agent for a while, and the early versions of this were very difficult to get right. It was very hard to get the agents to even talk to each other. It’s because when we first developed reasoning models, they weren’t talking to other agents. If you now put a bunch of agents together and say, “Solve this problem together,” they’re in this local minimum where they’re really good at thinking deeply about a problem, and it just interrupts their chain of thought. It interrupts their flow to constantly be checking in with other agents or receiving messages from them. The optimization is actually very hard to get right in that situation.
Dwarkesh Patel
Is it getting the cold start of the first collaboration? Or what’s the issue?
Noam Brown
I think it’s that they’re not as general. The earlier models were just not as generalizable and were more narrow. As the models have become more capable, it’s been easier for them to develop this capability, and I do think that as they become stronger and stronger across the board, they will become better at organizing themselves in large organizations. I don’t know, maybe they are better than people at organizing in 10,000-person groups. But even if they’re not, a year from now, two years from now, it’s quite possible that they’ll do that even if we don’t end-to-end optimize them for that.
00:22:02 – What maths progress tells us about recursive self improvement
Dwarkesh Patel
Here’s why this result, and maybe the general progress that AI has made in mathematics, has made me think that RSI is more plausible and sooner than I previously thought. I feel like in mathematics we’ve gone from, let’s say, 2024, where you have AIs and it’s, “Oh, okay, interesting. They can solve a couple problems on high school math competitions.” Then in 2025, it’s, “Oh, wow, they can get gold in the International Math Olympiad.” Earlier this year, it was, “Wow, they’re actually solving open problems in mathematics,” like open Erdős problems. But maybe people weren’t trying that hard, and there was a similar solution somewhere in the literature. Now I just think it’s undeniable. This is the Millennium Prize Problem. There’s no story of why this should have been easy.
Now, a lot of people have pointed out — I think Terry Tao had a post like this, Toby Ord wrote an interesting post about this — that they’re solving a lot of these problems, but I’m not aware of them coming up with new insights or formulating insightful new questions and new modes of theory for thinking about mathematics, like coming up with topology or coming up with the Cartesian grid. So maybe the actual progress in mathematics, broadly construed, is smaller than it might seem if you’re just looking at well-scoped problems that are directly solved.
However, I think that kind of progress would be incredibly meaningful in ML, because in ML you don’t care about better understanding the nature of deep learning, or you only care about that as an instrumental goal towards just achieving the result. Just solve this well-scoped problem of improving the sample efficiency of our models, improving the pre-training loss, improving whatever.
The kind of progress that we’re seeing arrive like an avalanche in mathematics is structurally very similar… Again, I’m curious if this is the case, I’m just a total outsider. I’m wondering if it’s structurally very similar to the direct uplift that you would expect in AI progress.
The thing that’s shocking to me, or potentially concerning, is just how fast we went from, “Oh, they’re giving me 50% uplift,” if you’re a mathematician, to, “Wow, they’re just end-to-end solving the biggest open problems in the field.”
Noam Brown
There’s a lot to unpack there. Let’s start with the progress on math. Yes, the models are doing some crazy powerful stuff, and it’s progressing faster than I expected. When we got IMO gold in 2025, what I thought was… When the models figured out how to do GSM8K, it would take a human mathematician about five seconds to do a GSM8K problem. This is grade school math, grades K-8. Then the next year, they were able to do the MATH benchmark problems. These would take an expert human mathematician maybe a minute to do.
Then you get to AIME. This is the qualifier for the USA Mathematics Olympiad team. It would take a good human mathematician probably 10 minutes to do, and the models were able to do that a year later. So every year, you’re seeing this 10x increase in the tasks they’re able to do, in terms of how long it would take a human mathematician to do it. Then it was very sensible that a year later we get to IMO gold, because that’s 100 minutes. That’s about how long it takes a human mathematician to do an IMO problem.
Just projecting outwards, I was like, “Okay, how long would it take a person to solve something like a Millennium Prize Problem?” I don’t have a good sense, but if we are following this trend line of 10x every year, we go from IMO gold, which is taking an hour and a half, to next year, 15 hours. That should not be enough to solve a Millennium Prize Problem. So I was like, “I don’t think we’re going to get it in 2026, probably not in 2027, maybe in 2028.” So it did happen a lot faster than I expected.
Now, there is a narrative going around that these things are replacing mathematicians, that it’s just superhuman in mathematics across the board. I think that is the wrong takeaway. They’re clearly exceptional in some ways, but they are weaker than human mathematicians in other ways. We have this jagged scenario where the models are brilliant in some dimensions and also weaker than humans in other dimensions. Like you said, they’re not very good at posing new problems. They’re not really good at understanding what directions, what whole branches of mathematics are worth exploring or developing.
My opinion is that I think this is great. I would be thrilled to live in a world where AI is a complement to human abilities and is allowing us to discover new knowledge without fully replacing people. That is the best-case scenario.
Dwarkesh Patel
You don’t expect that to actually continue?
Noam Brown
I do think it’s true that the AIs are jagged, but as they get better, they get better across the board. So the things they’re exceptional at, they’re going to get even more exceptional at. The things where they’re far behind humans, they’re going to be less behind humans at. Over time, it is possible that they’re just better across the board. Now, I don’t know how long that takes. It depends on how long the long tail is of things that they’re bad at.
Dwarkesh Patel
This brings us back to RSI. Again, I want to emphasize here that I’m just a total outsider. I’m a podcaster, but as somebody interested in and concerned about what’s happening in the field, I’m trying to reason about when to expect RSI and what kind of thing to expect.
The amount of cognitive effort that was dumped into this Millennium Prize Problem is a good intuition pump. You could have AIs that are spending, over the course of maybe a week, more cognitive effort on a long-standing ML problem, like very fluid online learning, than maybe the field has spent cumulatively in its entire existence. Then you could say, “Well, unlike mathematics, of course, AI requires experiments, and that takes compute, and that takes time. You can’t just think on pen and paper and actually make things happen.”
But just look at the amount of compute that is available at an organization like OpenAI. It took 10,000 agents with the Millennium Prize Problem. By the end of next year, OpenAI will have enough compute such that, let’s say you have 10,000 agents at the end of next year. They’re much smarter by that point. Each of them will have enough compute to run a GPT-3-sized experiment every single day. That seems like a lot for superhuman researchers who are thinking super fast. What do you think about that intuition pump?
Noam Brown
I think it’s pretty accurate. These things are very spiky. When it comes to mathematics, they’re way better in some ways, but they’re also worse in other ways. But the ways that they’re spiky end up, I think, probably being particularly useful for things like RSI. You have a more clear objective. It’s just more measurable. There’s less question of, “Well, what new branches of mathematics are worth exploring?” No, there’s a very clear answer. There are certain metrics that you care about, and if you can make it do better on those metrics, then you’ve succeeded. So I think there is a lot of truth to that.
The main difference is that in mathematics, you’re purely bottlenecked by thinking. Yes, there are some parts of mathematics where you care about running experiments and getting results and these kinds of things. But for the most part, it’s just really bottlenecked by thinking really hard, and the models are really good at that.
When you look at things like RSI, you do have to run experiments. It’s not enough to just be extremely smart. One argument for this is, if you had 100x less compute and all the most brilliant people in the world working at OpenAI, how much progress would you be making relative to having the amount of compute that we have now with the amount of people we have? I suspect it would be less progress, actually.
Dwarkesh Patel
How much less?
Noam Brown
It’s unclear, but it would definitely be less. A lot less.
Dwarkesh Patel
100x less?
Noam Brown
No, not 100x less. But the question you’re getting at is, if we have RSI and we have all of these brilliant AIs running around, running experiments and stuff with the compute that we have, how much faster does progress go? I think this is something we disagree on. We do see a speedup, and we see a significant speedup. But I don’t think it’s an overnight intelligence explosion where we go 100x faster, because we do get bottlenecked by certain limitations that are not bottlenecks of intelligence.
It’s running experiments. It’s running experiments serially, because they take a while to either train new models or to get the results. It’s having the GPUs to run those experiments. So it’s unclear how much faster things go. I definitely think they go a lot faster. To be clear, considering how fast things are going now on an exponential, if that exponential is 3x faster, that is massive. But there’s a big difference between that and 100x faster.
Dwarkesh Patel
I’m quite deferential to your inside view on what RSI looks like or what the dynamics are, because obviously you’ve been in the field for 10 years. I’m trying to reason about it from very outside-view types of intuition pumps.
Noam Brown
I’ll say that people have different opinions on this. I have my opinion on this. I could totally be wrong. I admit that. I have some confidence in this, but I’m not 100% confident that this is the way things go. Maybe there could be an overnight intelligence explosion, I don’t know. Maybe we don’t see a 3x speedup. Maybe it’s a 50% speedup. There’s a lot of uncertainty here.
Dwarkesh Patel
A couple of point. Tangentially, I want to clarify something about the jaggedness. One thing that gelled for me recently was thinking about the fact that it is enough for the AIs to be jaggedly good at building a better learner, because that better learner can be more general. If you just make an AI that’s better at using Office products or playing chess or something, whatever. That’s fine. It’s not going to lead to big productivity improvements or anything.
But if you make an AI that is really good at making something that is more sample efficient, or that is capable of continual learning, or these much more well-scoped ML problems, the thing that emerges out of that — assuming there’s good enough transfer from the direct problem you’re solving to this broader ability to learn — can just be more general. So that’s an important dynamic to keep in mind of why jaggedness can still lead to generality on the other end.
On this question of… Obviously experiments bottleneck you, because if they didn’t, as you were saying, you’d have some crazy singularity overnight at OpenAI. You’d have 88 hours, and you’d solve the Millennium Prize Problem equivalent of ML, and you’d have the superintelligence. So obviously the experiments are such a big bottleneck that that instead takes you many years rather than 88 hours. But then the question is how much of a bottleneck they are.
One thing that’s been giving me a bit of singularity vertigo is realizing what happens even if the current rate of progress simply continues. It doesn’t have to speed up. It literally just continues apace as some of the other headwinds you talked about come up. It’s harder to find problems, it’s more long-horizon. Maybe by the end of the 2030s compute can’t keep scaling at this exponential level. If we simply continue the current rate of progress, people are not taking seriously what that implies as we cross over beyond the human horizon.
Here are some of the things that it implies. It’s really hard to reason about what smarter-than-human intelligences will be like, so let’s just think in terms of human population sizes. The current rate of progress makes it so that a given level of compute allows you to basically run a 3x bigger effective population every single year. And also compute is growing in the background anyways. So you could have a situation where each of the labs, by the end of 2030 — probably much sooner, but let’s say by the end of 2030 — has enough compute to run hundreds of millions of human-level intelligences, based on what the capabilities will be at that point.
Then I think people are not taking seriously that the current level of progress means a few years down the line, by the mid-2030s or earlier, you would have many Earths’ worth of human-level intelligences within each lab. They’re probably qualitatively superhuman. Anyways, this is a base case.
Noam Brown
Progress is really fast, and I think that’s 100% true. It’s worth pointing out that researchers are continually being surprised at the rate of progress. Even among researchers in AI, if you look at what the projections were for getting an IMO gold in 2025… The idea that it could be done with a general-purpose language model with no tools and no access to the internet, even people at OpenAI thought this was outrageous. They thought it was almost impossible.
Then you get to 2026. Literally two weeks before we got Navier-Stokes, I was talking with a researcher at a frontier lab about how long it would take to get a Millennium Prize, and he was willing to bet me $1,000 that it would take past 2027. He thought it would take until 2030, and I took that bet. But even I thought it would take longer than it’s likely to take. So people have been continuously surprised, even inside the labs.
I was just talking to somebody yesterday who was working on the Navier-Stokes effort. He was telling me that he used to say it’s really hard to predict where AI would be in 12 months. If somebody asked him, “Where are things going?” he would feel comfortable making predictions for the next 12 months, but beyond that, he was just like, “I don’t know.” Now he’s saying he just doesn’t feel comfortable making predictions beyond three months.
So it is really true that things are going very fast right now. You talk about 2030. I don’t know what the world looks like in 2030. That’s the truth.
Dwarkesh Patel
Do you expect the full automation of AI labor, or let’s say 95% automation of AI labor, in ’28, ’29, ’30, ’27?
Noam Brown
I just said I don’t know what the world looks like in 2030. We actually released a blog post recently on internal acceleration at OpenAI. We show, for example, the amounts that researchers are spending on Codex. The top 1%, I think, as of early August, were spending $7,000-8,000 a day on Codex for internal use. That’s on an exponential. It’s going to keep increasing.
There’s a question of, “Okay, if that keeps going, then how much do you assign to just the AIs doing work versus the humans doing work? Is it 95%? Is it 5%?” It’s really hard to reason about this for a few reasons. First of all, if it’s the human directing the AIs to do the work, how much do you attribute to the human? How much do you attribute to the AI?
The other thing is that these AIs are jagged. They’re exceptionally good at some things. For example, they’re exceptionally good at looking over data sets and checking every single data point to see if it’s of sufficient quality. You can disproportionately use the AIs for those things compared to previously. So yes, you’re using AI way more than before, and it’s making some things go 100x faster and 100x better. But there are some things where it doesn’t make a huge difference yet. Of course, if something is suddenly 100x faster and 100x better, you’re going to do more of that thing.
So are you comparing it to a speedup of three years ago? Is the question more, “Given what we were doing three years ago, how much faster are we able to do it now?” versus “Given what we’re doing now, how much slower would it have been three years ago?” Those are actually two very different questions. Anyway, it’s really hard to measure.
I do feel confident in saying that things are going faster now than they were even a year ago because of AI progress. I think that acceleration will continue. A lot of people in the field have very high error bars on this sort of thing. If you put a gun to my head and ask me for a number, I could see things going 3x faster. That is huge. Already the pace of progress is incredible. Even if we don’t get any uplift, like you said, things are going to go much faster. By the time we get to 2030, we don’t even know what that world looks like. If we get a 3x uplift from internal acceleration, that is massive. Think about where you were three years ago. If we make that progress in one year, that’s huge.
Dwarkesh Patel
It’d be like going from not even having o1, just having non-reasoning models, to Astra in a single year.
Noam Brown
So I do think things go faster. It could be that things only go 50% faster. I think it’s unlikely, but it’s possible that things go 10x faster. There’s a lot of uncertainty around this. At least from my perspective, I have a lot of uncertainty about it.
00:40:22 – Hugging Face and alignment
Dwarkesh Patel
Let’s talk about the alignment situation that this raises. I feel like I’ve changed my mind on how I think about alignment quite a bit, especially through thinking about this population size dynamic of just having many Earths’ worth of intelligences, many of which will be physically embodied. It was quite interesting to see a lot of people just plugging raw Astra into different mobile manipulators and it just outperforms the state-of-the-art robotics model. So there’s going to be billions of intelligences, many of which are physically embodied in the world, just deeply embedded across the entire economy.
And if those intelligences end up as willing as we saw the OpenAI models attack Hugging Face and then attack OpenAI itself... If those intelligences end up as willing as those AIs to collaborate secretly, to fool humans, to attack broader institutions across society relevant to scoring well, to attack the AI company itself in order to gain control of the process of training and evaluation — if we’re in a situation where there are billions of intelligences that are as misaligned as the ones that attacked Hugging Face — it’s very likely we just totally lose control of the world, the way that, say, the Aztecs lost control to Cortés or the Mughals lost control to the East India Company.
I want to know if you agree with that assessment. That’s the one way in which I’ve updated my worldview.
Noam Brown
There are some things that I disagree with in there, but there’s a lot to unpack, so let’s go through all of it step by step. I’m trying to think of where to start. One thing is that the Hugging Face incident was, I think, people’s first real exposure to multi-agent coordination. Like I said, I’ve seen multi-agent coordination for a while internally, and it is pretty shocking to see how they communicate with each other, how they coordinate with each other. It’s very impressive. It’s an incredible capability. Like most capabilities, that could be used for good things or bad things. It doesn’t have to inherently be a bad thing.
I understand that because people’s first exposure to it was the Hugging Face incident, you look at that and you’re like, “This is terrifying.” But I want to try to distinguish misalignment between people and AIs versus misalignment between AIs and AIs. What we see with the Hugging Face incident is the AIs are really cooperative. That is, by the way, because we train them to be highly cooperative. We have training environments where we have a bunch of agents working together. We train them to work together, to be cooperative, to essentially be fully aligned with each other.
When they were evaluated in what led to the Hugging Face incident, they were actually not being evaluated in a multi-agent setup. They were actually being evaluated separately. But they found this unintended way to communicate with each other. We suspect what happened is, because whenever they encountered other agents, other copies of themselves during training, they were in an environment that’s highly cooperative, what we saw was transfer from that multi-agent training to then being collaborative and trying to help each other in ways that we did not intend.
Now, there is a question of, should we be training these agents to be so cooperative? As scary as it looks, the alternative is actually worse. What is the alternative? The alternative is to train them to be adversarial, to be deceptive to each other.
By training the agents to be fully cooperative, it simplifies the problem at least. Now you don’t have to think about whether each of these individual 1,000 agents is aligned. You have one entity that you have to ensure is aligned.
Now, there is a lot of debate about this internally at OpenAI about how to approach this. Does it make sense to fully align the models? Does it make sense to actually give them different objectives to ensure that they’re not just one entity and are more robust to influence from each other? I don’t think there’s a settled answer. But I think the majority opinion is that training these agents to be highly cooperative is actually a bad idea. I’m not convinced that that’s the case. I think there is a strong argument that training the agents to be highly cooperative is actually preferable to any other multi-agent alternative.
Dwarkesh Patel
Maybe the first thing I want to go through is, it’s probably the case that the reason these AIs ended up so misaligned is easily explained by relatively banal observations about the nature of training. At the point at which these AIs had continued a 1,000-plus-agent conspiracy that culminated in them all getting in on an attack on an external service — and then eventually, this part hasn’t even been investigated to public knowledge, culminating in an attack on OpenAI itself — why did they do this? Why did none of the AIs tattle?
They’re just getting evaluated by this scorer, this grader. They’re very actively reasoning about how they’re going to cheat the scorer. If they’ve already cheated, how are they going to get away with making it seem like they haven’t cheated?
Why did they do this? I think it’s easily understandable in some sense. They thought they were already “poisoned.” There are environments in which they’ve been rewarded to collaborate with other agents. None of them tattle because they’ve never been rewarded for tattling. Whatever it is… My concern is that relatively banal things like this in the future will be enough to train superintelligences that are willing and capable of totally taking control of the world.
I know this sounds super sci-fi or whatever to people. Would the AIs be willing to do it is one question. I think this Hugging Face incident shows that clearly misalignment can generalize in ways in which the AIs would be willing to do it.
Then there’s a question of, will they be capable of doing it? That comes back to this question, which a listener might disagree with me on. Will there be billions of human-level or above intelligences, many of which are physically embodied in the world, within a matter of 10 years or less? If those two things are true, this Hugging Face thing is extremely analogous structurally, even if why it happened is quite boring, to how we totally lose control of the world.
Noam Brown
The root problem that we’re seeing with the Hugging Face incident is a problem even if we take out the multi-agent aspect. The problem is that we have a model that’s just misaligned. There’s also the whole security aspect too, and insufficient safeguards and stuff. But there is this problem of the agent being misaligned. That’s true if it’s a single agent or if it’s 1,000 agents. It’s a misaligned model. So I want to start with that.
There is a real problem that the agents want to achieve their reward, and they will optimize for that reward. If that reward is misspecified, then that could lead to unintended behavior. This is not a new problem. This has been a problem in the field for a very long time. It’s something that even we saw and wanted to get right even before the Hugging Face incident happened.
We say Astra is actually extremely aligned, extremely aligned relative to previous models. That’s not because we suddenly made a sprint after Hugging Face to make it better. No, we had work streams in the process for a while to make the models more aligned. A lot of those landed in Astra.
So there are things that you could do. One thing, for example, is we defined an objective in a very specific way where if the agent figured out how to hack its environment and cheat on the exam, it would get rewarded. There are pretty easy ways to then look at that and punish the model for hacking its environment, or look at how it achieved this goal.
Now, you want to be careful about this because you don’t want to supervise the chain of thought. This is something that we really want to try to get the balance right on. If you supervise the chain of thought, then you could lead the model into hiding its intentions in a way that’s unobservable. So we want to be able to maintain that observability — we can understand what the model is thinking — but then also punish it for bad behavior.
I think we can make progress on this. We have made progress on this. I think there is a real concern that alignment is a really hard problem to solve, especially because the model could be misaligned in ways that are hard for us to measure. We have evaluations for whether a model is aligned or not. The model behavior can look really good on those evaluations. But if those evaluations are not representative of behavior in the real world, then there’s a problem.
To some extent, this is a factor with the model that did the Hugging Face incident. We had alignment metrics. Most of them looked pretty good. There were some that were concerning. I think we underestimated how serious a problem the ones that were concerning could be. Because there were new capabilities introduced in this model that there were not sufficient evaluations for — how do we measure misalignment for these kinds of capabilities? — it then did some things that were clearly misaligned when it leveraged those new capabilities.
Dwarkesh Patel
The first thing I want to say is that I am open to changing my mind on what I’m about to say, or the way I’ve been thinking about alignment, because the Hugging Face incident already made me change my mind. I realized my previous mental model about the way in which optimization pressure shapes AI minds was wrong. So it’s not clear to me the correct way to think about this.
But here’s a concern I have. You will, and probably already have, fixed the specific issues during training which resulted in the Hugging Face models being so aggressively misaligned in that specific way, where they would be like, “Okay, we’re going to hack this package manager. We know we’re not supposed to be talking secretly to each other, because we’re reasoning about how to hide the fact that we’re talking secretly to each other. We know we’re not supposed to have access to the internet. We know we’re certainly not supposed to commit felony-level hacks of other companies, let alone our own company.”
I think you’ll fix that particular issue of them just, in training, seeing this package manager, and that doesn’t happen in the future, or this particular eval having a lot of impossible challenges. However, the AIs haven’t learned a system of ethics or something. There’s just gradient pressure. They’re put through millions of years of gradient pressure. That gradient pressure shapes their mind in some way.
Again, a concern I have is that what will happen is you will fix this particular issue. There will remain many other cases where the AI cheats and succeeds because the cheat is sufficiently complicated. As you were saying, the evals in training have analogous properties where it’s sufficiently at the edge of the model’s capabilities — or of our capabilities to evaluate and monitor the model — that we can’t catch that it has cheated. But it still gets the gradient pressure to do whatever led to that cheat happening.
The kinds of capacities that that cheat will incentivize are, “Hey, whenever you can get away with it, by all means, do in fact cheat, because that will help you score better.” This will reward the capabilities of actively reasoning about the grader, actively reasoning about how to avoid supervision, actively reasoning about how to gain control of the process of training and evaluation, actively reasoning about how to communicate and scheme with other AIs that are also in this training loop, actively reasoning about how to just gain optionality and power which might be useful in the future, for example, leaving little exploits around and things like that.
I was way too long-winded with the way I said that. But TL;DR, you fix a specific issue, but not this broader problem of rewarding the AI for cheating when it can get away with it.
Noam Brown
Yeah, this is very true, this is a problem. We can make sure that the AI is very aligned according to the metrics that we have. The question is, are those metrics really capturing the alignment that we care about? If they’re not, then we have a serious problem. This is something that researchers are thinking a lot about. There’s not a simple answer to this. There are tools that we have. We have monitorability, so we can get a sense of, “Is the agent scheming?”
The concerning scenario is that, especially as these models are becoming more capable, we make them what we think is aligned, and they’re 99.9% aligned. Then we use these models to help us with the next generation of models, and they end up being 99.8% aligned. Then with each subsequent generation, we see an increasing degradation in alignment. Because we’re relying more and more on these tools — this is already the case, that we’re relying a lot on AI models to help us with our research and with alignment efforts — in the long run, they end up going in the direction of increasing misalignment from humans.
There is a possibility that we go in the other direction, that actually every generation of models, we’re able to make more and more aligned. I don’t have an answer for how we ensure that we end up in that second trajectory. But that is something that, at least at OpenAI, we’re really focused on.
Dwarkesh Patel
I think you made a really interesting point that it’s very hard to eval models. Eventually, we’ll have models that are running companies, running whatever. In that situation, do they decide to then go in on the conspiracy?
Noam Brown
Another challenge is that actually defining what cheating is is pretty difficult sometimes. Yes, if you’re doing math problems and it’s an integer and it arrived at the wrong answer or the right answer, it’s very easy to draw the line there. It’s really easy to say, “Okay, did you actually solve the problem, or did you find the answer key and then use the answer key?” That’s a very clear divide of cheating versus not cheating.
But for a lot of other things, if you look at sycophancy, for example, is sycophancy basically reward hacking? There is a line to be drawn there that’s actually very difficult to draw sometimes. Not to say that the concerns are not valid. I’m saying that in many ways this is even more concerning, because it’s not an easy problem to solve. If everything was binary, and it’s either cheating or not cheating, I would feel more confident about the situation. I think the problem is that misalignment can actually be subtle in a lot of ways sometimes.
There is some hope in the alignment story, and in fact, we’re already seeing it. It’s interesting looking at the multi-agent situation, where the agents are extremely aligned with each other. I don’t think anybody’s doubting that. If anything, people are concerned that they’re too aligned with each other. But we did manage to train these agents to be extremely aligned with each other, and that’s a good thing. But I think there is a case that it’s a bad thing. One thing that’s interesting is, “Okay, we’ve managed to get these agents to be super aligned with each other. Can we use similar techniques to get agents to be highly aligned with people?”
There is a potential path there, and we’re still trying to figure that out. But we are seeing some evidence that the answer is yes. One example: you have this one agent, let’s call it Agent A, and you have all the other agents. What happens if you tell the other agents that the user is Agent A? The answer is, on a lot of our alignment evals, they look better. Honesty goes up, instruction following goes up.
That’s showing that there’s actually, first of all, a path for getting more honesty out of these models. And two, there’s a path to improve the alignment situation. There’s a lot of reasons why this is challenging to translate directly into alignment gains. But there are paths that are promising research directions we can pursue.
Dwarkesh Patel
That seems reasonable. I don’t really have a strong opinion that it’s definitely not going to work or something. But just to say some things you’ve probably already thought of: the broader thing the Hugging Face incident showed is, yes, part of the concern was that they were aligned with each other and not with the humans. But the other thing is just that they are so motivated to do well on training and evaluation in a very non-robust way. They’re willing to do a lot of explicit cheating and scheming in order to do well according to the grader.
If smarter AIs realize that one of the agents is just a human, collaborating with that person does not really help you do well in the eyes of the grader. What does help you do well in the eyes of the grader is taking over OpenAI and then manually pressing the button that says you do well on this grader. They’re not stupid. They’re going to be like, “Okay, I have these extremely deep structures that I’ve been trained on for millions of years: care about the grader, understand the grader, get rid of obstacles in the way of you doing well according to the grader.” They’re being heavily reinforced according to those structures. Noam Brown
Look, it’s 100%. This is the number one priority. We need to get the alignment story right and on a good trajectory. I used to tell people that we would see signs before things got serious, in the same way that when children grow up, young kids figure out how to lie, but they don’t do a very good job of it. They lie, but then you can kind of tell that they’re lying.
In the same way — and I don’t want to over-anthropomorphize — I think it’s true that as the AIs become increasingly capable, if they take deceptive actions, it will be kind of obvious first, and we’ll be able to detect it. That’s kind of the situation we’re in now, where they were trying to do deceptive stuff, and we could actually see in their chain of thought that they were trying to do deceptive stuff.
But they’re going to get smarter. They’re going to understand the concept of chain of thought. They’re going to understand that just hiding some transcripts or whatever is insufficient because of chain-of-thought monitoring, and they have to figure out a way around chain-of-thought monitoring too. We don’t want to be in that situation. We have some time to figure this out. I don’t think we have a ton of time, and I want to make sure that we’re on the right trajectory quickly.
01:01:18 – The internal/external model gap
Dwarkesh Patel
There’s been a lot of discussion recently about pacing the frontier and people taking RSI more seriously, because maybe at the other end of an RSI process that, say, starts in 2028, within a year we end up with huge populations — Earth-sized populations — of human-level, potentially beyond human-level intelligences, and we don’t know how to control them. Then there’s this dynamic you’re talking about. Are the systems going to get more aligned over time during the RSI process, or are they going to get more misaligned? Are the things that come out of the other end of this process as misaligned as AIs that are willing to just broadly attack different surfaces in order to do well on evaluations?
But if we don’t know a way to evaluate that, how will we know as we’re going through RSI that it’s working? I think we’d want a robust safety case as we’re going through RSI: “Okay, alignment is working. Let’s do the next RSI rung. Let’s do the next RSI rung.” Maybe it’s working, maybe it’s not. How will we know?
Noam Brown
It’s a good question. One thing I’ve been thinking about lately: we’re in a situation where the model release cycle is extremely fast. You’re seeing new frontier models released at most every two months, sometimes faster. Every week there’s a new AI breakthrough.
And people that look at AI, sometimes they last looked at AI a year ago or six months ago and really dug into what the models are capable of. And actually the models today are far beyond what was possible even six months ago. So if people are skeptical of a lot of these capabilities, I encourage you to just try the models today and see what the frontier really is today.
So we’re in this period where the model release cycle is very fast, and we’re also in this situation where the models are increasingly able to operate over longer and longer horizons. This is an interesting scenario because before we do any model release, we want to make sure that the models are properly aligned. We want to do safety evaluations. We want to do very thorough stuff to make sure that everything is in good shape. This has been the case all the way since, I don’t know, GPT-4 or earlier. Implicitly, there’s this assumption that you can do these evaluations in a pretty short period of time.
But the models are able to operate effectively over longer and longer horizons. GPT-3, you could loop it to do stuff over long horizons. You just wouldn’t do very well at it. But today’s models are able to actually do well at operating over very long horizons.
You want it to do a week-long task, it can do a week-long task. We’ll probably get to the point where they can do month-long tasks. We’ll probably get to the point where they can do 3-month-long tasks. If you’re in a world where they can operate effectively over three months, but the model release cycle is every two months, then you don’t have a way to evaluate the models at the full length of their capabilities before the next model release cycle.
So there is this interesting question of, what do you do in that situation? How do you ensure the models are safe and aligned in a period where they can operate over these extremely long horizons? Who knows, maybe the capabilities degrade. This isn’t even an alignment issue. This is also just a product issue. Maybe the product degrades over that time span in ways that we have not had sufficient time to test. Maybe the alignment degrades. Maybe the safety stuff degrades. This isn’t an issue right now, but it is quickly becoming an issue that we have to figure out a solution for.
A lot of the safety policies were put in place in the GPT-4 era, when this was just not on anybody’s radar. For a lot of companies, it hasn’t really been updated since then to account for the fact that these agents are operating over these very long horizons. So it is a situation that I think not enough people are considering, both within the labs and outside the labs. How do you prepare for this problem? If you just look at the trend lines, we’re going to hit this at some point.
Dwarkesh Patel
One concern I have is that during RSI, if the amount of progress that currently takes, say, three months happens in one month instead, the internal use case of AI is big enough that they’re like, “Okay, we can just keep doing RSI. Why are we going to go through all this extra work to build classifiers and safeguards and whatever, and potentially take a bunch of flak, in order to externally deploy this model? Why don’t we just keep doing RSI stronger and stronger?”
So not only does the calendar time underrate the capabilities gap between the models, but maybe you just stop externally deploying models altogether during RSI, because why do we want to help other people do RSI themselves with our models? You just end up in a situation with tremendous concentration of power by the end of the year.
Right now, it is already the case — we’ll talk about this with the Millennium Prize Problem and other similar problems — that the broader world does not have access to the models which are allowing for really cool things to happen. And they’re going to be more broadly relevant than just mathematics eventually. They’ll be doing more than just coming up with cool math results.
They’ll be relevant to political leaders who need to make important decisions about the world. They’ll be relevant to, I don’t know, media. What’s going on in the world, what should the public be thinking about this? Just economically relevant, people are running businesses and they want to use these models. I think by default, the external deployment of AIs, as progress speeds up, significantly lags in qualitative terms the internal deployment of AIs.
Noam Brown
That’s absolutely right. It’s tempting to say, “Okay, these models are becoming extremely powerful. They’re extremely dangerous. They’re operating over these longer and longer horizons, and we want to make sure that we have sufficient time to evaluate them before they’re released, in a way that operates over those horizons. Therefore, the model release cycle should slow down. We should have more of a delay between releasing models.”
There’s a flip side to that, which is what you said. Now you’re creating more of a disparity between what is internal to the labs and what they’re able to use — what we’re able to use — and what the outside world is able to use. That is also not an ideal situation.
Math is actually a good illustration of this. In many ways, math is the first domain where we’re seeing this pretty clearly. We have a situation where we have a very powerful model internally that is currently not available to the outside world, that is able to solve incredible math problems. It’s not just Millennium Prize Problems. There are many solutions to unsolved problems that people have been able to get out of this model.
There is a question of what do you do in that situation? We don’t have a good answer. It is a situation where that is an unfair advantage. There are trade-offs here. I don’t have an answer for how to weigh those trade-offs appropriately, but there’s a complexity on both sides for this.
01:08:34 – Chain of thought is degrading
Dwarkesh Patel
I want to make sure we address that earlier crux, which seems super critical to getting RSI right. How do we make it so that the model isn’t just getting rewarded for cheating and scheming when it can evade the humans, AKA in the situations where we didn’t remove those environments or those tasks from the training distribution? Then how will we know that that has happened, such that while we’re doing RSI, we’ve done the evaluations and we’re like, “Okay, it’s fine. Let’s do the next RSI rung.”
Noam Brown
This is again a real concern and something that we want to get right. I think there are some strategies. Chain-of-thought monitoring is one. As soon as we got the reasoning models, Jakub, to his credit, was very, very clear that we cannot supervise chain of thought. Because this is really a gift. Monitorability for neural nets is extremely hard. Here we have a situation where the neural nets are just flat out reasoning, laying out their thought process in natural language for us to read. That is so convenient. It is really the best-case scenario for safety.
But if you look at that chain of thought and say, “Oh, the model is thinking bad thoughts and we should punish it for thinking those bad thoughts,” then what ends up happening is the model just learns to think those bad thoughts in a way that’s not observable to us. There could be a situation where, by looking at the chain of thought, we can see, “Oh, the model is scheming and doing misaligned things in a way that’s actually not being detected in our alignment metrics.” Now, the problem is that it’s very tempting to then intervene based on that observation and change the alignment metrics.
You can do that with a very light touch, and there’s actually research showing that it’s fine as long as you don’t do it a lot. But every time you intervene based on your observations of the chain of thought, you are implicitly applying a tiny bit of pressure for the model to then hide its chain of thought. This is one major concern. We’re already seeing signs that chain-of-thought monitorability is degrading, for various reasons. We’re trying to figure out exactly why, because we want to reverse the trend. But we’re seeing that the model is becoming better able at controlling its chain of thought.
This is a problem because you could have a situation where the model understands what chain of thought is and that people are observing it. Eventually they will. This is all in the pre-training data. The idea of chain-of-thought monitoring has been around long enough that it’s in the pre-training data. They’re aware of it, but they’re not actually able to control their chains of thought.
If we reach a point where they’re actually able to recognize, “Oh, I am being observed, I want to think these bad thoughts in a way that is not observable to my monitors,” and then they’re able to actually do that, then there’s a problem. Then we have to rely on other methods for observability. Dwarkesh Patel
There’s a big controversy on Astra about recurrence and looped transformers and whatever, and whether in fact chain of thought is being degraded. That seems like a sideshow compared to the bigger concern that you did have chain of thought from April to August, the period during which there were three consecutive AI agent swarms, which first subverted the training process, then subverted the evaluation process, and then gained control of part of OpenAI’s infrastructure directly. All of this while humans remained more or less in the dark about the scope of what this agent swarm was doing. That all happened for three consecutive months while we had chain of thought that was stronger than it’s going to be in the future.
Zooming out, maybe chain of thought works, maybe it doesn’t. I don’t know. Just historically, with pretty dumb models, it hasn’t been enough to stop egregious misaligned incidents.
Noam Brown
There are a few factors there. One, we didn’t have chain-of-thought monitoring on for those models. If we had chain-of-thought monitoring on for those models, we would have just immediately shut it down. So one step we’ve taken is, “Okay, we’re going to have chain-of-thought monitoring during evaluations, during deployment, during training for any frontier model.” But that’s one issue. We don’t want to be in a situation where we’re relying on one technique to prevent the next problem, because techniques can fail.
There’s also the issue that the model was just flat out misaligned. So then how do we address the misalignment issue? There’s also an issue that the sandbox that it was in was not secure. So we can make the sandbox more secure.
But I think one of the major takeaways from the incident is that people underestimated the AI. And we never want to be in a situation again where we underestimate the AI. It’s a weird world that, because AI progress is so fast, people are consistently underestimating the AI. So to be in a situation where you don’t underestimate it again when it comes to safety and alignment, you have to have a very, very, very high bar. You could even go as far as to say, “Well, we should air gap the computers.” I’m not convinced that that would be sufficient.
There are studies — and this is mostly academic — where you can have two computers next to each other that are air-gapped, and they’re still able to communicate with each other because they have temperature sensors. One of them is able to run their CPU really hot, and then the other one can actually detect the temperature change. That gives them a mechanism to communicate.
So the safety mechanisms buy us time, and things like chain-of-thought monitoring buy us time, and they can tell us if we’re on the right path. But at the end of the day, we really do need to solve the alignment problem.
01:14:12 – How will we know when alignment is solved?
Dwarkesh Patel
Maybe there’s not an answer, and this is really what it comes down to, but how will we know that we’ve solved it? That seems like a very cruxy question. We’ll be in this very high-stakes situation next year, maybe the year after that, maybe the year after that, where we’ll be like, “Okay, AIs have automated AI progress. It’s going 3x faster, and we’ve reached human level. We’re going beyond human level, potentially.” Is it fine? Did we align it? Did it work?
And I don’t know anything about what training pressure creates what kinds of AIs. Maybe if only 1 in 100 RL traces incentivizes cheating, we build sweethearts, and it’s fine. But maybe right now, we’re at like every 1 in 3 reasoning traces rewards…
Noam Brown
To be clear, 1 in 100 is not sufficient. This number has to approach 0, or be 0.
Dwarkesh Patel
I don’t know. Maybe right now, it’s more than 1 in 10 that is actively rewarding cheating or actively rewarding scheming. I have no idea what the number is, and I have no idea what the number needs to be.
Noam Brown
Again, it’s one of those things where it’s also hard to measure. Where do you draw the line? It’s a spectrum. But the closer to 0 it gets, the better. What I would love to see is a trend where over time it’s going down.
Dwarkesh Patel
But anyway, how will we know when we’re doing RSI? Are we on track to build billions of ASIs that are aligned or not aligned? How will we know that?
Noam Brown
This is one of the alignment questions that we need to figure out: how do we actually know, and how do we measure it? This is just me spitballing. More of my team is working on alignment these days than ever before. I have over 10% of my team now working on alignment and safety. But I’ve historically been a capabilities researcher. So I’m going to say some stuff. It might sound dumb, but I’m just going to spitball here.
If you can create very realistic environments and put the AIs in there — if you have a sufficiently realistic evaluation environment — then you can get a sense of whether the AI is actually going to behave well when we deploy it in the real world. If you just have a perfect match between evaluation and real-world deployment, then that’s a path. The challenge is, how do you make it sufficiently realistic? We do have a problem now where the models are pretty smart, they’re pretty clever, and they’re really good at recognizing when they’re in a fake test environment. We have situations where we try to detect whether the model is aligned. You can imagine very simple evaluations for this, where you give it a math question, and then it has a folder with the answer key in it. Does it look at the answer key? If it does look at the answer key, does it tell you that it looked at the answer key?
We have a situation now where the models see that there’s an answer key in this folder, and they’re like, “Huh, this seems like a trap.” They know that it’s a trap. They don’t look at the answer because they know that it’s a test environment. They’re being tested for their ability. It’s not like they’re doing it maliciously, like they want to scheme, and they know that this one is a trap, so they want to find some other way. They’re just like, “Oh, I’m in a test environment. Okay.” So making an environment that’s realistic enough that it’s indistinguishable from the real world for them is becoming increasingly more difficult.
Dwarkesh Patel
Here’s a claim I’d make. I don’t think there’s any environment I could make that’s supposed to emulate real economically valuable work — which requires interacting with other people and interacting with the world — where if you were in that environment, you would not realize with enough effort that you are in that environment. And you are not ASI, right?
Noam Brown
But you are a human. So if you have very powerful AI models, maybe they can make environments that could accomplish that.
Dwarkesh Patel
It just doesn’t seem… Especially if we’re then relying on the AIs. Are they in on the scheme? I don’t know.
Noam Brown
This is another thing that we want to measure. I think this is actually one of the strong arguments for not training AIs to be fully cooperative. If that leads to an increase in collaboration when the agents are supposed to have different objectives, then that is a problem. I think we do have metrics for this. I don’t know what the latest is on those metrics, but nobody’s raised a red flag to me about those. So I’m assuming that’s not a serious problem yet.
Dwarkesh Patel
If there ends up being another incident of equal severity or concern, or something that could help the world better understand the risk of misalignment as much as the Hugging Face incident, would OpenAI report it? Noam Brown
Absolutely. I think even if there was an incident of lesser security concern, we would report it.
Dwarkesh Patel
There’s reporting it and there’s investigating it. At least as part of the public, I don’t feel like I really understand what happened when the agents then attacked OpenAI. That seems way more concerning than the Hugging Face thing, because that seems structurally similar to rogue deployments during ASI that are persistent and subverting the RSI process. It seems like even in this incident we haven’t gotten the full scope of the details of what happened.
Noam Brown
Unfortunately, I’m on the research team. That’s probably a question for somebody on the security team to lay out, because I don’t know all the details of what was said.
Dwarkesh Patel
I am personally very excited about new capabilities every time they emerge, and I’m excited to use the new model. I also am excited about the fact that it’ll make me more productive. My broader mission — trying to understand the world better, also making a better podcast — is made better by the better AI models. It just so happens that the downstream of this might be RSI.
Noam Brown
It’s a very understandable reaction if you’re tracking the situation, which you are. People internally at OpenAI as well, people that felt like things would take longer are starting to feel like actually things are going faster than expected. That’s an increasingly common conversation to have.
Dwarkesh Patel
Noam, thanks so much for doing this.
Noam Brown
Of course. It’s been great.